Minutes of the November, 2024 Heralds Meeting

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MINUTES OF THE HERALDS MEETING – November 3, 2024
(11:00 AM to 1:07 PM)

ATTENDEES:

Domamir Vlatko syn, Vesper; Edith of Swanesdale, Matins; Hirsch von Henford, Golem; Astrið of Swansvale, HE; Victoria of Durham, Sable Swan; Moira of Kent, Seawolf; Catriona inghean ui Chionaodha, Stellanordica; Anne FitzRichard, PaL; Eilis ni Roibeard O'Boirne, Green Crown; Gwenhwyfaer ferch Gwilym ap Morgan o Erryrys, Green Trumpet.

COLLEGE OF HERALDS MEETINGS

The November meeting was held via online conference, future meetings will be held via online conference with the exception of Twelfth Night which will be held in-person only, until Vesper announces otherwise.

Herald’s Meetings for 2025: January 5, March 2, May 18, July 13, September 21, and November 16. Meetings usually begin at 11:00 AM and will be held via online/remote teleconference until further notice.

The DEADLINES for submission forms and documentation are: 2024 Deadlines: December 18 for January meeting.
2025 Deadlines: February 19, May 7, July 2, September 10, and November 5.

Submission forms must be complete and received either via EMAIL or hardcopy by the deadline date at midnight to be considered at the next meeting (which is about 11 days later, except December due to holidays and the roadshow meeting prep time needed). If the forms are EMAILED, then payment must arrive by the meeting day. WALK-IN submissions will not be accepted while meetings are held via remote conference.


REPORTS

Vesper (Damir): Most of the heralds have completed the annual roster update. The West Kingdom now has an approved financial policy that will allow PayPal payment for submissions. Tentative availability will be to accept fees for the March 2025 meeting.


Seawolf (Moira): The Principality Ceremony book has been updated to remove all mentions of Sovereigns and Consorts in the ceremonies. A big thank you to Golem Herald for making the revisions in the text. Mists Investiture will be on November 16.

Sable Swan (Victoria): Victoria had a lot of help at Coronet as she was still recovering from surgery.

A big thank you goes out to Moira O'Connor, Alizan, Gaerhart, Bren, and Moira of Kent for field heralding. Moira O'Connor, Caolinn, and Elwys Gwynne for court heralding. And Anna, her trumpet, and Troy for town cries.

The herald's pavilion is now being housed in the principality trailer. This will allow Sable Swan to advertise the position again with that not being a requirement. Sable Swan is seeking a successor, if interested please reach out to her and Vesper.


Stellanordica (Catriona), Successor (Anne): Events are happening, and she thinks reports are being submitted and confirmed in a timely manner. (And thanks to Hirsch for all the review and feedback on reports!)

In Oertha, as Catriona mentioned at the last meeting, Anne FitzRichard will be her successor as Stellanordica - once they handle some other officer-ship shuffles and training. Details still TBD! The next Principality event will be Coronet in January, but Their Highnesses have been attending events and giving awards, and Their Majesties are expected to visit in December for the Bi-Baronial Yule in Southcentral Alaska.

In Eskalya, Skye Ó Dubhda (aka Scath Ros, or Stacye of Eskalya, mka Stacye Westerlin-Robertson) has stepped in to succeed Lena of Eskalya after we lost her.

Of note, Lena's memorial will be on November 9, if anyone can attend or wishes to send condolences to her daughter (Baroness Celestria) and other family.

In Selviergard, Ceara inghean ui Beirichtir is mentoring Freya of Selviergard in the position (Freya is not yet 18)

In Winter's Gate, Talorc Veda is still serving temporarily as herald.


Exchequer (Moira): The College remains solvent. A check was sent to the Society College of Arms to replenish our account.


Matins (Edith): Note that this month’s submissions include those that were worked on and paid for at Great Western War. Please remind submitters and consulting heralds to use the forms directly from the West Heralds website. Outdated forms are reason for return of submissions.


Baldric (training deputy): Vesper is running training as a College-wide program, not assigned to a specific individual at this time.


Brachet (vacant), Leveret (Ræv).


Green Cloak (Alizan): Nothing to report.

Green Cloak is looking for a successor.


Green Crown (Eilis): Kingdom Court and Great Court, pop-up courts happened at GWW. As far as she is aware, everything has been reported.


Green Trumpet (Gwenhwyfaer): Nothing to report.


Green Banner (Aasa): No report received.

Green Banner will be unable to attend this meeting (November) due to GSP rehearsal, but will be back starting at 12th Night.


Golem (Hirsch): Golem has been the usual busy/not-busy. A few minor things sometimes come up in code, which is not too surprising. The interesting aspect lately is that 5 early LoARs were posted over the last few years that he didn’t realize were there. This meant going back and finding people – names/armory – that weren’t up on the History site, and then sending images of armory from the archivist to Raev to work on. Also finding one item that was in an LoAR from 1971, but not in the Ordinary and Armorial database at all. Morsulus noted that “If it appeared on an LoAR, then presumptively, I can act on that and add it to the O&A”, so he’ll get that in soon.

Otherwise, court reports are coming in pretty regularly, and being confirmed (for the most part) pretty quickly (some within minutes of the reports coming in). The Mists is working on some minor revisions to the ceremony book, which shouldn’t take long.

Golem will work soon on putting together a “volunteers needed” posting about people assisting with different aspects of what he does, so that hopefully some interest will get drummed up in trainees.


ANNOUNCEMENTS / Other Business

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENTS

Facebook Page: The West Kingdom Heralds' have their own page on Facebook, announcements, help with consultation, and more are often done there:

      https://www.facebook.com/groups/302970543102065/

The West Kingdom web team have added a Discord channel for heraldry, which is used for consultation, look for the #heraldry group.:

      https://discord.gg/DF2uNqw7uA

MAILING LIST: The Yahoo hosted mailing lists have been closed by the folk at Yahoo. At this time, we no longer have a means of communicating with the College of Heralds except the Facebook Page noted above, or via email. To make it possible to post announcements from senior staff heralds, there is a new Announcements page (link removed, as this page was not used and removed from the site).

ELECTRONIC RESOURCES: Many interesting heraldic links can be found through the SCA Heraldry web page at https://www.sca.org/heraldry, including the Laurel home page, the on-line Armorial and Ordinary (with search capabilities) and The Academy of St. Gabriel (an onomastic and heraldic consultation service). The West Kingdom Heraldry site and the West Kingdom Awards List can be accessed through the West Kingdom site, https://www.westkingdom.org. Heraldic queries may also be addressed to Vesper at herald@westkingdom.org -- answers may take a few days.

Also see above for the Kingdom Heralds' Facebook page and Discord channel.

BRACHET MEETINGS

Contact brachet@heralds.westkingdom.org for external commenting participation.


FROM THE LOARS

The cover letters, acceptances and returns for the past can be found at https://heraldry.sca.org/loar/. If you are interested in responding to some of the calls for commentary put out by the Laurel Sovereign of Arms, please be sure to visit the site.

August, 2024 LoAR (printed October 3, 2024) (West - May 31, 2024 LoI)

Cover Letter

Cover Letter

West Acceptances - August LoAR

Acceptances

West Returns - August LoAR

Returns

September, 2024 LoAR (printed October 23, 2024) (West - No LoI)

Cover Letter

Cover Letter

West Acceptances - September LoAR

Acceptances


In Service,
Edith of Swanesdale, HE,
Matins Herald


SUBMISSONS – November (2024)

ITEMS SENT TO LAUREL

Antony Dionysius (NEW Name & Device sent to the CoA)

The submitter cares about the gender (male) of the name.

Antony - from NCS DMNES: an English masculine given name dated to 1532-1594 in Early Modern English [https://dmnes.org/name/Anthony].

Dionysius - NCS Withycombe, p. 81, under the header <Denis> lists Dionisius 1200, 1221 and Dyonisius 1221.

- used here as a surname or unmarked patronymic, found as a given name in NCS DMNES: dated to 1540 in Early Modern English. This source lists Latin forms in England as Dyonisius 1300; Dionisii, and Dionisio 1357, Dionisius 1379; Dionis 1381. The proposed spelling interchanges "i"s" and "y's", which, as the submitter comments, is well-documented. [https://dmnes.org/name/Dennis]

Bardsley s.n. Frost has <Dionisius> dated to 1379. The same spelling also appears s.n. Henshaw also dated to 1379. The interchangeability of i and y in English is well-documented.

Dionysius and Dionisius can be found in the IGI extracts for England and Germany. Some examples for the submitted spelling from England include:

name: Dionysius Berisforde
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 24 Jan 1586
baptism/christening place: NORTON,DERBY,ENGLAND
father's name: Dionysius Berisforde
indexing project (batch) number: P01370-1
[https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NB7Q-WV5]

name: Dionysius Hilpe
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 30 May 1568
baptism/christening place: WEDMORE,SOMERSET,ENGLAND
father's name: Joannis Hilpe
indexing project (batch) number: P00258-1
[https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NG2T-BLZ]

name: Dionysius Hemsworth
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 09 Oct 1558
baptism/christening place: SWILLINGTON,YORK,ENGLAND
indexing project (batch) number: P01497-1
[https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JMK7-79C]

The Middle / Early Modern English name formation <given + byname> is found in SENA Appendix A.

Device:
Per bend sinister azure and argent, a brown talbot’s head couped contourny proper maintaining a bunch of grapes purpure slipped and leaved vert.


Arnóra Úlfsdóttir (NEW Device sent to the CoA)

Per bend sinister vert and purpure, a grey wolf proper rampant to sinister maintaining a sheaf of arrows argent.

SENA A3B1 says that grey charges proper "are interpreted (at the time of registration) as either sable or argent based on which is most favorable to registrations". Because of the tinctures of the field, this wolf must be considered argent.



Caitilin O’Byrne (Resub to Kingdom Device sent to the CoA)

Device submission returned at the March 2015 West Kingdom Heralds Meeting: Argent, a domestic cat sejant affronty sable, on a chief wavy purpure three paw prints argent. With the notes: Paw prints are a SFPP. Device appears to be clear of conflict, however, the cat, as drawn, is “a-back-ee” and therefore will need some interior detailing to make it “affronty.” We will forward the device to Laurel at the next meeting if the correctly drawn forms are received timely.

New emblazon has the cat in a different posture.

Argent, a domestic cat sejant guardant sable, on a chief wavy purpure three paw prints argent.

There is a Step from Core Practice for the use of pawprints.



Guiliano Lorenzo (NEW Name & Device sent to the CoA)

The submitter will accept the following changes: Julian as a first name; di Lorenzo, de Lorenzo, Rossini, di Rossi, or de Rossi as a last name.

The submitter cares about the language and/or culture (none noted) and gender (male) of the name.

Guiliano derived from Iulianus, Iulianus is found in 13th century Pisa; translation found in Ferrante la Volpe, "Italian Names from Florence, 1427". Found in NCS “Masculine Names from Thirteenth Century Pisa” by Juliana de Luna: [https://heraldry.sca.org/names/pisa/pisa-given-alpha.html].

listed in "Milanese Notaries 1396-1635" by Maridonna Benvenuti (MKA Andrea Hicks} at [https://www.s-gabriel.org/names/maridonna/milaneseNotaries].

Lorenzo - a given name in "A sample of Jewish names in Milan 1540-1570" by Yehoshua ben Haim haYerushalmi (MKA Zachary Kessin) at: [https://heraldry.sca.org/names/Jewish/milan_names.html]: <Lorenzo Brunelli son of Petro>.

And found in the "Tratte of Office Holders 1282-1532" edited by David Herlihy, R. Burr Litchfield, Anthony Molho, and Roberto Barducci at [https://cds.library.brown.edu/projects/tratte/doc/TLNAME1.html].

SENA, Appendix A states" Family names typically modify a patronym or byname by removing the last vowel (if there is one) adding -i. Unmodified forms are found as well.", so <Lorenzo> should be acceptable as a surname.

The Italian name formation <given + patronymic> is found in SENA, Appendix A.

Device:
Per saltire gules and vert, a cat’s face argent marked sable.


Margrethe Astrid Ravn (NEW Badge & Badge sent to the CoA)

Badge 1
(Fieldless) A lioness salient to sinister Or playing a viol proper.

Badge 2
Vert, a hippogriff statant with wings elevated argent.

Potential conflict, as per the Oct 2001 precedent “the difference between a hippogriff and a griffin must be determined on visual grounds”, against: Serena Lascelles, Badge/Misc Armory, via Ansteorra, 07/1996 (Fieldless) A griffin passant argent.



Mists, Principality of the (NEW Order Name sent to the CoA)

Perles de la Mer, Order of the - this is new registration in the pattern of the currently registered <Dames de la Mer, Order of the> (Mists, Aug 1987) to be associated with the same award of the Principality but removing all reference to gender.

Attestation of support for registration signed by Officers of the Principality is included for Sovereign’s review.


Moss of Little Marsden (NEW Name sent to the CoA)

The submitter marked no boxes.

Moss - from NCS FamilySearch, Moss Eztraners Burial 14 Jan 1622 Stanford Rivers, Essex, England, Batch #V00654-8 [https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XKDL-1MR].

And NCS FamilySearch: Hugh Moss Ashton. Father's Name: Willhelmi Ashton. Christening. 13 May 1554. Mavesyn Ridware, Staffordshire, England. Batch Number C10410-3 [https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J92Q-P2R].

And unverified batch FamilySearch: John Moss Purslowe. Death Date 1593, Sidbury, Shropshire Unitary Authority, Shropshire, England. Cemetery: Holy Trinity Churchyard. The name is taken from a gravestone [https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6PMC-9VJ7].

of Little Marsden - English locative formed using <of + placename> as per SENA Appendix A. Little Marsden is an English placename: various spellings dated 1241, 1292, 1296, 1311, 1533, 1634 [https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/lancs/vol6/pp536-541].

From NCS Ekwall listed under the header <Marsden, Great and Little>, but no dates provided for this spelling. p.316

The Middle / Early Modern English name formation <given + locative> is found in SENA Appendix A.


Peregrine Tower (NEW Name & Device sent to the CoA)

The submitter will accept the following changes: spelling of name.

The submitter cares about the sound (as written) of the name and has no preference on gender.

Peregrine - from NCS Withycombe under the header Peregrine: “Peregrine is found, though always rare, as a Christian name from the 13th C.” p.242.

Tower - from NCS FamilySearch: Christabell Tower, Burial record: January 01 1580 Lancashire, England, Batch # B00569-2 [https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J8YL-761].

From NCS Reaney & Wilson, p. 452, under the Header <Tower> has <le Towyere> 1280, and Peter le Tower, 1255.

From NCS Black, p. 777, under the header <Tower> has Patrick Towar [sic] 1625.

The Middle / Early Modern English name formation <given + byname> is found in SENA Appendix A.

Device:
Vair, issuant from the base of a tower vert, two falcon’s legs belled and jessed Or.


Rabbit Hunter (NEW Name & Device sent to the CoA)

The submitter marked no boxes.

Rabbit - from NCS FamilySearch, a late-period English byname: Edward Rabbit Marriage 24 Oct 1585, Orpington, Kent, England, Batch # M00837-1 [https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N2FD-JVQ], and Richard Rabbit, Marriage 8 Aug 1644, Ewhurst, Sussex, England, Batch M14804-1 [https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NK4J-L4H].

FamilySearch has several <Rabbit>s between 1587 and 1650 with unverified batches.

Hunter - from NCS FamilySearch: Agnes Hunter, Westmoreland, England 11 February 1583, England, Batch # B00461-3 [https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J8R3-GPJ].

And from NCS Reaney & Wilson, p. 244, under the header <Hunter> lists Simone Huntere 1220 and Juliana la Hunter 1312.

And from NCS Black: p. 307, under the header <Hunter> has Adam Hunter, 1259, Johan Hunter, Huwe the Hunter of Stragrife, and Richard the Hunter of Stragryfe 1296, Maurice Hunter 1327, and more.

The English name formation <given + byname> is found in SENA Appendix A.

"Surnames from the second half of the 16th C and early 17th C may be used as given names; they are treated as any other 16th C given name [Alton of Grimfells, 04/2010, A-East]." - SENA Appendix A, English.

Device:
Argent, a lyre sable, in base five gouttes des larmes in chevron inverted, a chief engrailed gules.


West, Kingdom of the (Resub to Kingdom Order Name & Badge sent to the CoA)

Originally on the list for the Sept 2024 meeting, this submission was not processed due to pending supporting paperwork.

Attestation of support for registration signed by Their Majesties, Principal Herald, and Seneschal of the West.

Order of the Bards of the West

Order - order name designator listed in SENA Appendix E2a.

Bards - occupational term starting in 1328 in “A Dictionary of the Older Scottish Tongue”, “bards” as the plural form dated to 1643 [https://dsl.ac.uk/entry/dost/bard].

the West - SCA Branch name registered Feb 1970.

Precedent for formation of the Order name: “To sum up, guild names and order names that have the appearance of profession, such as Scholar or Artificer, may add a branch name to avoid the ban on generic names. Other kinds of generic identifiers remain unregisterable.” From the Nov 2017 LoAR under An-Tir, submission Order name Order of Scholar of An-Tir.

Formation: <designator + profession + branch name>.

Badge:
(Fieldless) On a demi-sun vert a harp Or.


RETURNS – November (2024)

None!


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